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| User Info | The Foolishness of "Income And Spend" Numbers in forum [Ticker] | |||
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Genesis Posts: 66463 Incept: 2007-06-26
Royal Flush!
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http://market-ticker.org/archives/1163-T....
---------- I used to play flute; I wonder if I can play a fife? I incite prosecutors to create "Bubba Sausage Parking Lot" projects Darrell Issa has a middle finger and knows how to use it - Me 2009-06-26 08:42:40
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Glock36 Posts: 327 Incept: 2009-06-03 Banned
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Not Paying the Mortgage, Yet Stuck With the Keys Foreclosure Backlog Imperils Recovery By Renae Merle Washington Post Staff Writer Wednesday, June 24, 2009 Quote:A growing number of American homeowners are falling into financial limbo: They're badly behind on payments, but their banks have not yet foreclosed.... http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/con.... ---------- Black Helicopters Are Like ****roaches, You Never Find Just One Glock36's Law: Murphy Was An Optimist When You Find Yourself In A Hole, Don't Look Out Until You Identify The Type, As It Could Be A Foxhole The Greatest Enemy Of Knowledge Is Not Ignorance, But The Illusion Of Knowledge - Dr. Hawking 2009-06-26 08:57:19
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Amgrace Posts: 1224 Incept: 2008-02-15
New Castle, PA 16101
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THANK YOU for that clarification KD. I saw the release and thought how on earth could income be up in this environment.
---------- "In an informal survey at a recent meeting of 150 or so institutions, those admitting to feeling nervous about underexposure to risk outnumbered those feeling too aggressive by a neat 10 to 1! This also suggests how a speculative rally can keep going longer than reasonable investors expect." - Jeremy Grantham 07/2009 2009-06-26 09:02:10
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Sakete Posts: 313 Incept: 2009-04-29 Netherlands
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Great article Karl. Was wondering why the market here in Europe and the futures over there across the pond initially went up and then went back down quite fast. So it was the illusionary headline numbers that caused the initial ticks up but the actual information in the report, which isn't very encouraging, that caused people to dump stocks. Lucky me! :) ---------- Time is the most important! 2009-06-26 09:04:21
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Tjeffersonsghost Posts: 1824 Incept: 2009-01-26
Yes, I'd Hit It
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CNBC Headine on their site Income Jump Largest in a Year; Savings at 15-Year High I mean no wonder the sheep get slaughtered. Even I had to shake my head and its always good when you have Karl do the research for you :) Hey look at the bright side government wages and salaries are going up... Last modified:
2009-06-26 09:19:46 by tjeffersonsghost
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Genesis Posts: 66463 Incept: 2007-06-26
Royal Flush!
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Yep Sak. Never read just the headline. Its one of the reasons I always try to link the FULL release - it often is NOT what it appears. ---------- I used to play flute; I wonder if I can play a fife? I incite prosecutors to create "Bubba Sausage Parking Lot" projects Darrell Issa has a middle finger and knows how to use it - Me 2009-06-26 09:19:24
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Snowman Posts: 785 Incept: 2009-03-09
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excellent analysis. According to the FRBNY, consumer credit subbornly remains at 24% of disposable income (Q1 2009), while mortgage debt has dipped only a little from 101% of disposable income in 2007 to 97.92% (Q1 2009). And now we are getting higher mortgage rates AND consumer debt interest rates (e.g., in the form of CC rates). Q1 household debt service hasn't been released yet, but everything seems to point to gong back to higher financial obligation ratios (FOR). At some point people have to eat. DOn't know what the FOR "breaking point" is where people choose to default, but 20% seems close enough? 2009-06-26 09:20:28
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Amgrace Posts: 1224 Incept: 2008-02-15
New Castle, PA 16101
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DAX dumpage now....
---------- "In an informal survey at a recent meeting of 150 or so institutions, those admitting to feeling nervous about underexposure to risk outnumbered those feeling too aggressive by a neat 10 to 1! This also suggests how a speculative rally can keep going longer than reasonable investors expect." - Jeremy Grantham 07/2009 2009-06-26 09:20:56
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Genesis Posts: 66463 Incept: 2007-06-26
Royal Flush!
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The fallacy of the "inflationist" viewpoint is that in order for money to circulate it must be borrowed into the economy. Only the first "turn" can come from production - all other "turns" in the MV = PQ equation must come from a loan. When debt service reaches excess income (income less necessities of life) velocity ceases and no amount of "printed" money gets into the economy to do anything. There is no solution to this problem other than the pay down or default the debt that is producing the constriction. ---------- I used to play flute; I wonder if I can play a fife? I incite prosecutors to create "Bubba Sausage Parking Lot" projects Darrell Issa has a middle finger and knows how to use it - Me 2009-06-26 09:23:01
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Scrood Posts: 1663 Incept: 2008-05-17
Green Shoots!
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Why do I get the feeling that someone from Goldman Sachs is being paid to "interpret" the report for the journalists?
---------- It's all illusions anyway. Neil Young 2009-06-26 09:23:44
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Shemp Posts: 158 Incept: 2007-11-29
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----------------- Further, we know that all residential mortgage debt is about $10 trillion dollars. Let's be nice and assume a 5% interest payment, interest only, but not being paid. That's roughly $69 billion dollars annually that is being spent on "consumer things" that would otherwise be spent on mortgages - if they were being paid. --------------- Karl, is that $69 billion correct? 10T*5%=500B for a year, right? 2009-06-26 09:53:33
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Genesis Posts: 66463 Incept: 2007-06-26
Royal Flush!
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$10t X default rate (12%) * 5% = ~60-70 billion, depending on where the default and interest rates fall out. Note that this ignores principal in the impact as it is presumed that most defaulting mortgages have little principal being paid down (probably a good assumption) but also probably UNDERSTATES as the average interest rate in force is likely higher than 5.5%. Small changes make big differences in the numbers; I'm trying to be conservative. I suspect the actual drain is significantly worse than I postulated, but I try to put things in the best light possible. ---------- I used to play flute; I wonder if I can play a fife? I incite prosecutors to create "Bubba Sausage Parking Lot" projects Darrell Issa has a middle finger and knows how to use it - Me Last modified:
2009-06-26 09:57:32 by genesis
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Shemp Posts: 158 Incept: 2007-11-29
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Karl, thanks for clarifying it.
2009-06-26 09:59:22
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Scrood Posts: 1663 Incept: 2008-05-17
Green Shoots!
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I calculated $59B, but I'm sure KD will correct both of us... I used 10 million homes out of 85 million homes are not paying their mortgage with a total value of $1.176T. With a simple 5% interest on that total value, I came up with $59B. ---------- It's all illusions anyway. Neil Young 2009-06-26 10:00:08
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Genesis Posts: 66463 Incept: 2007-06-26
Royal Flush!
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Its close enough Scrood. There's a lot of slop in those numbers as they're all gesstimates. Betweeen that and CC defaults however it looks like ~$150-160 billion/year in withdrawn spending, which is quite significant and will definitely whack on GDP when it disappears. ---------- I used to play flute; I wonder if I can play a fife? I incite prosecutors to create "Bubba Sausage Parking Lot" projects Darrell Issa has a middle finger and knows how to use it - Me 2009-06-26 10:04:05
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Jules Posts: 39 Incept: 2009-04-18 Pickled in the brine of futility
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Quote:Further, we know that all residential mortgage debt is about $10 trillion dollars. Let's be nice and assume a 5% interest payment, interest only, but not being paid. That's roughly $69 billion dollars annually that is being spent on "consumer things" that would otherwise be spent on mortgages - if they were being paid. Do you know, if this $69 billion is actually getting spent on "things"? I had thought that the people did not HAVE the money to pay their mortgage due to lost jobs, so they wouldn't have anything to spend on "things" either? ---------- What fresh hell is this? 2009-06-26 10:13:26
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Scrood Posts: 1663 Incept: 2008-05-17
Green Shoots!
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I just noticed that you beat me with your reply by a few minutes. Your analysis helps provide a reasonable explanation for the high levels of consumerism that I still observe in my neck of the woods... ---------- It's all illusions anyway. Neil Young 2009-06-26 10:17:55
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Parcontre Posts: 193 Incept: 2007-12-02
Fort Worth
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Quote:
I beg to differ with that interpretation. Economic growth depends on investment, and investment depends on savings, so in the long run increased saving will lead to a higher GDP. Of course, in the short run, it can be disruptive as some businesses dependent on consumer spending fail, and it may have negative impact on reported GDP. But in the long run it's healthy. This doesn't contradict the thrust of your commentary, it actually reinforces it. But its important for everyone to understand, the real problem is government standing in the way of a natural adjustment, and that increased saving is vital for the long run health of the economy. Quote:
There is actually a third solution, and that is for government to borrow the money, and then hand it out to "deserving" citizens so they can pay down their debts. Politicians steeped in ignorance often find this solution attractive, and today's numbers -- the subject of your ticker -- seem to suggest that is exactly what is happening. Of course, this solution is a recipe for disaster, and if carried to its logical extreme it will blow up the government as the dollar collapses and interest rates skyrocket. Nonetheless, history is full of disasters caused by ignorant and willfully stupid governments. ---------- Wherever fate my vessel steers, that image never disappears. In times of joy and times of tears, her song still echoes in my ears. 2009-06-26 10:18:08
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Steelhead23 Posts: 280 Incept: 2008-09-09 Portland OR
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Good news. Bloomberg reports that Americans are saving like mad and borrowing less, forcing regional banks to invest depositors money in more gov't debt. And by golly, there is plenty of government debt to go around - although the spread between the yields on those bonds and the interest on deposits must be getting vanishingly small. There seems to be a foregone conclusion in this - not only is the U.S. economy shrinking but the level of borrowing and thus the need for securitization must also be dropping. Without a need to securitize a huge amount of consumer debt - those too big to fail banks might just become irrelevant. Also, let's lobby Congress to insert language into all these assistance bills that precludes any entity receiving taxpayer dollars from contributing to election campaigns. Otherwise the whole process becomes one giant orgy - Congress gives money to banks and the banks launder it nicely and send some of it back to individual representatives. Not good for democracy.
---------- short em all - let God sort em out! 2009-06-26 10:26:08
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Genesis Posts: 66463 Incept: 2007-06-26
Royal Flush!
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Quote:I beg to differ with that interpretation. Economic growth depends on investment, and investment depends on savings, so in the long run increased saving will lead to a higher GDP. Of course, in the short run, it can be disruptive as some businesses dependent on consumer spending fail, and it may have negative impact on reported GDP. But in the long run it's healthy. But "savings" that is actually not saving (it is instead debt repayment) does not add to GDP. ---------- I used to play flute; I wonder if I can play a fife? I incite prosecutors to create "Bubba Sausage Parking Lot" projects Darrell Issa has a middle finger and knows how to use it - Me 2009-06-26 10:33:17
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Sushihorn Posts: 5632 Incept: 2007-10-22
Arlington, TX
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Parcontre You would be correct if "savings" in this instance actually represented accumulation of capital. But the definition means this category would include service of existing debt as well as real savings. Some idea of how much is being devoted to debt service can be gleaned from the Fed's consumer credit data, which has seen net consumer credit falling (repayment). Add interest to net repayment of principal and I suspect there is still not much net savings going on. ---------- http://jengafinance.blogspot.com/ You can't fix stupid ... but you can kill it. 2009-06-26 10:50:54
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Crosseyed Posts: 153 Incept: 2007-07-29
Atlanta, GA
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KD - Brilliant insight. As usual. Thanks!
2009-06-26 13:20:04
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Guyfawkes Posts: 307 Incept: 2008-09-19 Texas
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Karl mentioned over at Business Insider: http://www.businessinsider.com/todays-aw.... Quote:This morning the BEA came out and said American personal income up was up 1.4% in May, which was more than the .7% it grew by in April. 2009-06-26 13:42:56
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Parcontre Posts: 193 Incept: 2007-12-02
Fort Worth
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The bottom line is that we, as a nation, need to increase investment and cut back on consumption. People that are able will pay off their debts, and those that can't will default. I'm not really disagreeing with you guys, and there's no doubt in my mind that we're still in a world of hurt. And sure, the economic cheerleaders are spinning the numbers. But any way you cut the mustard, the only way out of our predicament is increased saving. Of course, the government does have the potential to short circuit the process, which is what I was alluding to with my comment on a third solution, i.e. inflation. ---------- Wherever fate my vessel steers, that image never disappears. In times of joy and times of tears, her song still echoes in my ears. 2009-06-26 15:32:16
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Phantomace Posts: 1525 Incept: 2009-03-16
Las Vegas, NV, and your screen
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Gen: Might be a stupid question here, but I have to ask... Does the USG get their calculation from spending vs income, OR from bank deposits vs income? Reason I ask is, how does the "bank of Sealy" impact those numbers? Many folks like me have withdrawn their funds from the banks and placed them in at home safes or the like, how does that impact these numbers? It may not be a lot on an individual level to make a 5 or 6 digit withdrawl from the system, but if a LOT of people have done that, what is the impact on these numbers? Just curious... ---------- "That was a little trick I call math. Oops, now I'm not emotionally invested..." - Dilbert The only good thing I have to say about Barney Frank is at least he's not breeding... 2009-06-26 19:21:10
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